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	Comments on: Returns From The Oldest Trusts &#8211; Revisited	</title>
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	<link>https://www.itinvestor.co.uk/2023/04/returns-from-the-oldest-trusts-revisited/</link>
	<description>Exploring the world of investment trusts</description>
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		<title>
		By: Simon Dawson		</title>
		<link>https://www.itinvestor.co.uk/2023/04/returns-from-the-oldest-trusts-revisited/#comment-11447</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Simon Dawson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Oct 2023 12:51:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.itinvestor.co.uk/?p=6050#comment-11447</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Thanks for that. Very useful]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for that. Very useful</p>
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		<title>
		By: ITinvestor		</title>
		<link>https://www.itinvestor.co.uk/2023/04/returns-from-the-oldest-trusts-revisited/#comment-11440</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ITinvestor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Oct 2023 12:35:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.itinvestor.co.uk/?p=6050#comment-11440</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.itinvestor.co.uk/2023/04/returns-from-the-oldest-trusts-revisited/#comment-11439&quot;&gt;Simon Dawson&lt;/a&gt;.

Hi Simon,

These numbers came from an AIC press release, which you can find at https://www.theaic.co.uk/aic/news/press-releases. They only release these sort of figures now and again though.

As far as I know, the best way to get this data otherwise is to manually go into the performance charts on the AIC site and amend the date range to get the time period you want e.g. https://www.theaic.co.uk/companydata/city-of-london-investment-trust/performance

The AIC data comes from Morningstar and seems to go back to January 1970, assuming the trust&#039;s launch date wasn&#039;t later than that of course. NAV total return data only seems to go back to the middle of 2008. You can add several tickers to a single chart rather than doing a new chart for each trust but, even so, it is a bit fiddly. I then use the power function on a spreadsheet to calculate an annualised return figure as I find this a better way of comparing one trust against another. 

Trustnet&#039;s charting tool at https://www2.trustnet.com/Tools/Charting.aspx is another useful resource but it only goes back to January 1995 and it only shows the precise total return data from that date (and over the usual latest 1, 3, 5 and 10 year periods). You can choose a later start date you then have the estimate the actual total return figure just by looking at the chart.

Yahoo Finance does some decent historical data as well but I haven&#039;t used that for trusts. It uses an adjusted closing price to reflect past dividends so you can calculate a total return figure using two dates. This has the option to export the data into a CSV file.
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/quote/CTY.L/history?p=CTY.L

Hope that&#039;s useful. I&#039;m sure there are other free resources available as well but I haven&#039;t checked around for other sites recently. 

Stuart]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.itinvestor.co.uk/2023/04/returns-from-the-oldest-trusts-revisited/#comment-11439">Simon Dawson</a>.</p>
<p>Hi Simon,</p>
<p>These numbers came from an AIC press release, which you can find at <a href="https://www.theaic.co.uk/aic/news/press-releases" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.theaic.co.uk/aic/news/press-releases</a>. They only release these sort of figures now and again though.</p>
<p>As far as I know, the best way to get this data otherwise is to manually go into the performance charts on the AIC site and amend the date range to get the time period you want e.g. <a href="https://www.theaic.co.uk/companydata/city-of-london-investment-trust/performance" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.theaic.co.uk/companydata/city-of-london-investment-trust/performance</a></p>
<p>The AIC data comes from Morningstar and seems to go back to January 1970, assuming the trust&#8217;s launch date wasn&#8217;t later than that of course. NAV total return data only seems to go back to the middle of 2008. You can add several tickers to a single chart rather than doing a new chart for each trust but, even so, it is a bit fiddly. I then use the power function on a spreadsheet to calculate an annualised return figure as I find this a better way of comparing one trust against another. </p>
<p>Trustnet&#8217;s charting tool at <a href="https://www2.trustnet.com/Tools/Charting.aspx" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www2.trustnet.com/Tools/Charting.aspx</a> is another useful resource but it only goes back to January 1995 and it only shows the precise total return data from that date (and over the usual latest 1, 3, 5 and 10 year periods). You can choose a later start date you then have the estimate the actual total return figure just by looking at the chart.</p>
<p>Yahoo Finance does some decent historical data as well but I haven&#8217;t used that for trusts. It uses an adjusted closing price to reflect past dividends so you can calculate a total return figure using two dates. This has the option to export the data into a CSV file.<br />
<a href="https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/quote/CTY.L/history?p=CTY.L" rel="nofollow ugc">https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/quote/CTY.L/history?p=CTY.L</a></p>
<p>Hope that&#8217;s useful. I&#8217;m sure there are other free resources available as well but I haven&#8217;t checked around for other sites recently. </p>
<p>Stuart</p>
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		<title>
		By: Simon Dawson		</title>
		<link>https://www.itinvestor.co.uk/2023/04/returns-from-the-oldest-trusts-revisited/#comment-11439</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Simon Dawson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Oct 2023 11:35:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.itinvestor.co.uk/?p=6050#comment-11439</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Is there any way for me to get hold of the 30 year performance data that you use to create these excellent articles? I would be particularly interested in data covering ITs that you haven&#039;t included in your articles already.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is there any way for me to get hold of the 30 year performance data that you use to create these excellent articles? I would be particularly interested in data covering ITs that you haven&#8217;t included in your articles already.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Andrew Leicester		</title>
		<link>https://www.itinvestor.co.uk/2023/04/returns-from-the-oldest-trusts-revisited/#comment-10651</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Andrew Leicester]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Apr 2023 15:27:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.itinvestor.co.uk/?p=6050#comment-10651</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Agree that trackers hold up reasonably well. I&#039;ve combined these with a few trusts that are on unusually large discounts (eg SMT - which appears to be still in freefall. I just hope it comes back in favour, although it may take a few years). I think that will lead to some alpha in due course.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agree that trackers hold up reasonably well. I&#8217;ve combined these with a few trusts that are on unusually large discounts (eg SMT &#8211; which appears to be still in freefall. I just hope it comes back in favour, although it may take a few years). I think that will lead to some alpha in due course.</p>
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		<title>
		By: ITinvestor		</title>
		<link>https://www.itinvestor.co.uk/2023/04/returns-from-the-oldest-trusts-revisited/#comment-10649</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ITinvestor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Apr 2023 13:02:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.itinvestor.co.uk/?p=6050#comment-10649</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.itinvestor.co.uk/2023/04/returns-from-the-oldest-trusts-revisited/#comment-10648&quot;&gt;Simon Hinchley&lt;/a&gt;.

Hi Simon, an excellent question that&#039;s difficult to answer unfortunately. I think it&#039;s fair to say that some trusts can outperform specific index funds but it&#039;s certainly not guaranteed and almost impossible to know which ones will in advance. I believe we can tilt the odds in our favour by looking at how they have performed in the past, and whether the same processes are still in place and look valid, and overall how credible their managers appear. But at the end of the day, it&#039;s a judgement call. 

Concentrated portfolios should give a better chance of both outperforming and underperforming by a wider margin, as does buying a trust that is more highly geared. Lower costs also help and some of the larger trusts like SMT aren&#039;t that much more expensive than global trackers. I&#039;d also say that there are some more specialised areas of the market, such as UK smaller companies, that are less well-researched and where there is lower liquidity and where trusts as a group seem to perform a little better against their benchmarks. There are also areas like infrastructure and private equity where it is harder to buy an index fund equivalent. 

Buying on a big discount, like SMT at around 20%, can also help assuming of course the discount does narrow significantly over your period of ownership. SMT is currently on a larger discount that it was during the financial crisis and the initial COVID lockdown, which I&#039;d say suggests it&#039;s much more likely to recover than not. But it&#039;s going to be a volatile ride given the strategy the trust prefers.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.itinvestor.co.uk/2023/04/returns-from-the-oldest-trusts-revisited/#comment-10648">Simon Hinchley</a>.</p>
<p>Hi Simon, an excellent question that&#8217;s difficult to answer unfortunately. I think it&#8217;s fair to say that some trusts can outperform specific index funds but it&#8217;s certainly not guaranteed and almost impossible to know which ones will in advance. I believe we can tilt the odds in our favour by looking at how they have performed in the past, and whether the same processes are still in place and look valid, and overall how credible their managers appear. But at the end of the day, it&#8217;s a judgement call. </p>
<p>Concentrated portfolios should give a better chance of both outperforming and underperforming by a wider margin, as does buying a trust that is more highly geared. Lower costs also help and some of the larger trusts like SMT aren&#8217;t that much more expensive than global trackers. I&#8217;d also say that there are some more specialised areas of the market, such as UK smaller companies, that are less well-researched and where there is lower liquidity and where trusts as a group seem to perform a little better against their benchmarks. There are also areas like infrastructure and private equity where it is harder to buy an index fund equivalent. </p>
<p>Buying on a big discount, like SMT at around 20%, can also help assuming of course the discount does narrow significantly over your period of ownership. SMT is currently on a larger discount that it was during the financial crisis and the initial COVID lockdown, which I&#8217;d say suggests it&#8217;s much more likely to recover than not. But it&#8217;s going to be a volatile ride given the strategy the trust prefers.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Simon Hinchley		</title>
		<link>https://www.itinvestor.co.uk/2023/04/returns-from-the-oldest-trusts-revisited/#comment-10648</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Simon Hinchley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Apr 2023 11:38:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.itinvestor.co.uk/?p=6050#comment-10648</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Thank you for this information. As an Index fund investor, but with shares in SMT, I am considering taking advantage of some of the current discounts to NAVS, but over the long term, do ITs really outperform Index funds and thus justify the pricier fees? I am relatively new to investing so please forgive my lack of knowledge.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for this information. As an Index fund investor, but with shares in SMT, I am considering taking advantage of some of the current discounts to NAVS, but over the long term, do ITs really outperform Index funds and thus justify the pricier fees? I am relatively new to investing so please forgive my lack of knowledge.</p>
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